14: Is Your Perfectionism Stealing Your Energy and Fueling Your Menopause Symptoms?

Are you constantly running on empty? If you're a midlife woman who feels like she has to do everything perfectly, you're not just 'busy', you're trapped. That relentless drive for excellence is a coping strategy that's secretly spiking your stress hormones (cortisol), leaving you exhausted, anxious, and making your menopause symptoms feel 10x worse. 

In this episode, we reveal the surprising connection between your need for "high standards" and your lack of time and energy, and gives you the exact steps to stop this cycle for good.

You'll discover:

• Why your 'good intentions' to be perfect are actually sabotaging your energy and time.
• The scientific reason (hello, cortisol!) why perfectionism is making your hot flashes and brain fog worse.
•  The surprising truth about why you're chasing perfection, and how it's secretly tied to your fear of not being worthy unless you're constantly doing more.
•  How perfectionism keeps you focused on what others think, and the simple mental shift that allows you to finally prioritize your own time and peace.

Ready to find out which midlife coping strategy is costing you the most?  Take our quiz to find out.

Find us on instagram:

Jen: @jenreimercoaching

Sheri: @sherijohnsoncoaching

Transcript

EP14 transcript

@1:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

About 80% of midlife women in Western cultures are struggling with menopause symptoms, and not just with the physical ones like hot flashes and sleep issues, but also with the emotional and spiritual symptoms of menopause.

And most of us are using at least one, if not more, coping strategies to get through it. And here's the problem.

These coping strategies used to keep us feel safe and in control, and they're not working anymore. In fact, they actually make things worse.

Today, Sheri and I are talking about one of the most common... And sneakiest of those strategies, perfectionism. So even if you think you're not a perfectionist, stay with us.

I didn't think I was a perfectionist at first either. And if you have ever felt like you have to get everything right, or you pride yourself in your high standards, or you feel like you have to earn your value through doing and achieving, then this episode is for you.

We are unpacking what perfectionism really is, and what it's protecting, and why it seems to ramp up in midlife, or why it becomes a bigger problem in midlife, and how it blocks the spiritual awakening that's trying to happen at this time.

So if you're ready to see what might be hiding in beneath, underneath, this perfectionism mask. Then keep on listening.

@3:07 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Okay, Jen, this is a, this is gonna be a good one, because I think there's probably a lot of people out there who were like us, who didn't, who don't believe they are perfectionists, because I didn't either.

And then one day, you said something to me that really made me think, oh, that's what perfectionism is. I am one.

And it was just, um, well, you, you know what, I always had thought about perfectionism in the workplace. And it was even a, you know, I used to be an HR recruiter, and I used to ask my candidates all the time, what is your biggest weakness?

And they would always answer, at least the ones who weren't really well prepared, like the young ones, the newbies, um, would always say, oh, I'm a perfectionist.

@3:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And...

@4:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Trying to impress, kind of, with the weakness, with the trying not to have any weaknesses. Yeah, like it's a weakness, but it's a strength.

Like it's a hidden strength, even though you're saying it's a weakness. And it actually is a weakness. It's not a weakness.

It's a coping strategy. And you said something about how it shows up at home. And that's when I thought, oh, I do that.

But I just didn't think I was a perfectionist because I wasn't really one at work. And now that I actually look at my behaviors at work, I am also one there.

I just didn't understand what the signs really were. So I think this is going to be good. I think people will, this is important for people to really, really dive into what this is.

@4:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I used to think it was, so I used to pride myself in my high standards.

@4:59 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm. And I didn't realize that that was perfectionism.

@5:02 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I didn't think I was a perfectionist because we're not detailed people. No, and I cut corners. Yeah. I don't like details.

I don't focus on details. I'm a strategy person. I like the bigger picture. I like to know why everything's happening.

So I was like, I'm not a perfectionist. And we both did really well in school, but we didn't get 90s, except in a few subjects.

@5:35 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Like we got in the 80s.

@5:37 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

were good, solid A students, but I didn't try hard enough to get 90s. Like we always left it to the last minute.

We didn't. Yeah, I was definitely.

@5:48 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Well, and as I said before, I cut corners and I leave things sort of undone. Like I know people who have to unfinished.

Yeah. Like I will always. Just leave one dish in the sink. It's such a habit. Like that one dish that needs soaking or whatever, like I leave it.

I've gotten, actually, I've changed that. I don't, I no longer do that because I was driving myself crazy. But I looked at that behavior and went, well, I'm obviously not a perfectionist if I'm willing to leave the kitchen, like not perfect at the end of the night, know?

@6:24 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right. So when I said to you, Sheri, whatever I said about being a perfectionist at home, what is it that you do that helped you identify that you are one?

@6:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, it's when we're having guests over. So I, I, and we just, I'm also, this is really starting to shift.

I noticed it because we just hosted the, one of our families on the weekend. And, but what I used to do was run around all day long, just make, trying to make the house look perfect.

And Really, it was, we're going to get into this, but I was so worried about what people were going to think of my house, and my cooking, and the way the table looked, and all the things.

right up until people arrived, I would be, you know, changing the towel in the bathroom, and wiping something off the floor, and lighting candles, and just trying to make it perfect.

@7:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yep. You know what I did? So this is a sign that you're a perfectionist. You know what I do share sometimes, where I've caught myself doing, is like wiping the cupboards, like the outside of the cupboards, as if somebody who's visiting my house is going to see that.

@7:43 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Or notice, yeah, yeah. Or notice, like it was, I had a friend who used to say, if there's no toothpaste in your sink, nobody notices.

@7:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And over the years, I have been unable to listen to her advice. That was advice I got when I was 25 years old.

@8:01 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, and that's 25 years ago, more than that. Yeah.

@8:06 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And now it's definitely easier for me to host. I still do have a little bit of that perfectionism that shows up when I'm having company.

But at the same time, I've let a lot of it go.

@8:20 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. And really, that's because we've both begun to let go of the reasons why we perfect. You know, what are the underlying beliefs that drive that?

And that's the most important part. You can't just say, oh, I'm going to stop perfecting. That doesn't work. Like I tried that.

Okay, I'm just going to stop doing all these things. And you cannot, it's the same with people pleasing. We talked about this last week.

You can't just will yourself to stop. It doesn't work.

@8:55 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Exactly. So let's just... Let's talk about some of the signs, Sheri.

@9:02 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep. Go ahead, Jen. So do you – okay.

@9:06 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So when I think of some of the big signs that you might not be aware of if you're a people pleaser – or I mean, sorry, if you're a perfectionist – is you probably think of it as high standards, especially at work.

Like you might pride yourself even in your high standards and your quality of work and your excellence. So I was going through this with one of our clients last week, and she keeps saying, yeah, but it's my brand.

Like this is my reputation. Yeah. I have to get it right. And one of the stories I love telling is about this woman I used to work with.

She was a client of mine, and I used to write the annual report for their company. And this annual –

Her report was impossible to write because she was a perfectionist. So we'd finish a draft thinking, you know, to our own high standards, to what we thought was a good report and would be perfectly fine with any other client.

And nothing was good enough for her. We would get up to 37 drafts of this report. She was fired by three different design agencies because they refused to work with her anymore.

Because there'd be so many drafts. They'd always go over time. They'd go over budget. And every single year, she...

So the way this... The consequences of this kind of behavior is she was constantly shouting at us because we couldn't get it right.

And we couldn't figure out what she wanted. Because it was some arbitrary high standard that she had in her mind, but she didn't even...

She it in her mind. She didn't really know what she wanted until she saw it. So then what happened was it created so much more work for all of us.

We had to budget in that extra time. We got smart after a while and budgeted in twice as much time to write their report as we did for other companies.

So they were paying more. And then we were late every year. So she would have to go to the Securities Commission and request to file the annual results late.

So that was more work for her. Those are some pretty big consequences.

@11:40 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

They are.

@11:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

If you think about work and how your high standards can sometimes play out, they were huge.

@11:49 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And she was working 18 hour days and she was a monster.

@11:53 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

She was awful to work with. And I was actually kind of friends with her when we were one-on-one or outside of work.

Like she I liked her. But holy smokes, there were some times when she was so wound up and stressed out that she was awful to everybody.

@12:10 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So, okay, we're kind of getting into consequences here. Let's talk more about the signs because I think we really need to get into this a little deeper on the signs that you are a perfectionist.

@12:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. So procrastinating is a sign. If you procrastinate on emails, writing anything, presentations, that's a sign that you're a perfectionist.

And it's usually because, at least for me, it was that I wanted to, like, I couldn't get the first sentence out because I wanted the first sentence to be right.

@12:48 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, yeah. And this, okay, so this also showed up at home for me. It is right now where I have trouble putting pictures on the wall.

Oh. So we moved into... And the pictures are still there on the floor because I want it to be perfect the first time.

Like I want them to all be laid out on the wall, if it's a gallery wall, or even if it's not.

Like I want the perfect pictures and I want them to be, or art or whatever it is that I'm hanging.

I want it to be perfect at the right height. I don't want to have more than one nail on the wall.

And so I just don't do it. I stop. It's the same with my garden. I had an empty garden for the longest time when we created a new garden because I didn't know where to start.

And a garden, oh my gosh, like you can move stuff around in a garden. But I wanted it to be perfect.

So I just, I procrastinated. I just, I never started.

@13:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I'm just thinking about that because those are ways that I hadn't even thought about before. Or like, not being able to.

The start things because you can't envision the perfect way it's going to be or how the whole thing plays out.

Like you don't have the perfect plan almost or the perfect map outcome. Yep.

@14:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@14:19 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

This is how that shows up a lot for me.

@14:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And I really have noticed it over the last couple of years because we moved three times. Right. So you're starting.

@14:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes.

@14:27 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

You're starting over.

@14:29 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Huh. Okay. So some other signs share are like one client calls herself the triple checker. So you check emails, you check for spelling.

Oh, and then she said, I said, you know, if you have a spelling mistake in your board presentation, so she's an executive.

If you have a spelling mistake in your board presentation, it is actually not going to matter. Like I would argue that if your content is really good.

If there's a spelling mistake, nobody on the board cares. Even if if they're. And there are high ups or executives.

They're not going to care. And she's like, oh, I would die.

@15:07 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@15:08 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Like she couldn't stand the thought of making that tiny error. And I'm thinking back, I know tons of executives who had spelling mistakes in their presentations.

I've seen Ted Talks that have millions of views that had a spelling mistake. So yeah, perfectionism going. I had a mile.

@15:30 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I just had another story because I had a leader who, it wasn't even just spelling mistakes. It was, you know, we would work with these massive, like 80 slide presentations.

And somewhere along the way, somebody would change the font or the page number would be missing or some little thing that we didn't notice.

Nobody else is going to notice. And we had to go through everyone and make sure that we had exactly the same colors, font, the page numbers were there.

It wasn't just about the spelling mistake, because those are kind of glaring for someone who's looking at it for the first time, but colors and fonts and making sure that those are consistent from slide to slide.

And it took us, like this was the one that I'm thinking about, was an 80-page slide presentation where we were, it wasn't just a presentation.

It was something where we were, it was a document, like it was a, and it took us forever. It like, of course, spent so much time on that.

And I just thought, what a waste of time when you're, you know, when they just don't care.

@16:45 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

When the more important thing is to get, to get the content right. So those kinds of things. Oh, the last one I wanted to just mention is like at home.

I watch it with my fellow moms all the time. You got to make the cupcakes from scratch instead of just going and buying them.

Or there's one mom that had laminated birthday cards, birthday invitations to her kid's birthday party. And I was going, and then there's another mom who sends out a text message to us.

Like our kids are really little. So it's not, so yeah, she just sends a text and says, it's my kid's birthday party next weekend.

Can you make it? Here's the time and place, whatever. Like, it's just so much simpler. And it's like that text message takes five seconds and doing the birthday card on paperless post and then printing it.

Like just, so think about how this might apply to your life, to our listeners. That's, it's like, yeah, these are some signs.

I'm going to stop there. Okay.

@17:58 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So. Next up on our list of things to talk about is what's beneath this behavior, what's actually happening, what's causing it.

@18:15 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

There are fears underneath it of consequences. So that'll be the first thing that everybody says. Well, I do it because of the consequences.

@18:26 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm. So, well, and we already talked about like some of the consequences of being a perfectionist. Yeah. And there's also consequences, sorry, of not being a perfectionist.

Like, and then there's consequences to being a perfectionist.

@18:44 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. So let me first talk about- sides. Yes. Okay, so the first thing that comes up is, well, I have to do it right or there's consequences.

Like- So embarrassment. I could lose my job. My boss could get mad at me. The executives might think I'm incapable.

At home, could be, you know, my guests will think I'm messy or dirty. Or, I don't know, the other moms won't think I'm good enough, a good enough mom.

I didn't please my kid by making them the perfect imitation. So there's the fear of real or perceived consequences.

So fear is the first layer.

@19:41 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

What I noticed about what you just said, Jen, is that a lot of that has to do with appearances.

How do I appear? Are people going to judge me?

@19:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@19:53 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So those fears are actually not, you know, I don't really. I if there's toothpaste in the sink. It's what is everybody else going to think of me if there's toothpaste in the sink?

@20:11 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Well, and hold that thought. I'm going to come back to that. So it comes from fear. Sometimes we don't even realize what that fear is.

Like we have to peel away layers. Like what's the worst thing that can happen if you make a mistake on your board presentation?

@20:30 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Right.

@20:31 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And usually it's not like I'm going to lose my job. It's not the surface fear. It's the embarrassment. It's like I don't want to be embarrassed.

So we are avoiding perceived judgment because that actually in many cases wouldn't be embarrassing. So it's our own embarrassment.

It's our own response that's not necessarily reflecting the actual judgment of the people. Well, Looking at your thing, house, presentation, whatever it is.

So does that make sense?

@21:08 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, and I'm just, I'm thinking about that because quite often when we perceive that someone else is judging us, we're also judging ourselves and we're probably judging them.

Like if you believe that someone is going to judge you because you made a mistake in your presentation, are you also judging other people for making mistakes in theirs?

And are you, like, how are you judging yourself for making that error?

@21:40 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, like, do you, if you beat yourself up for making a mistake, you're judging yourself for making the mistake.

@21:51 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Even though nobody else, like, it's perceived because there could be nobody else who even cares.

@21:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Totally. Yeah. Totally. So then the next layer of it then is the fear of actually, like the fear of being judged is also just this fear of feeling the emotions that could come up.

Like we really don't like as humans feeling shame. No.

@22:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Shame and embarrassment, which are actually two different things, but neither of those are very comfortable. Shame is worse. Yeah.

@22:26 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So our client who, who, when I was telling her this story and she said, Oh God, I, I would die if I had a spelling error in my presentation.

She's not actually afraid of the board's reaction.

@22:43 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

She's afraid of the feeling.

@22:45 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

She, she's afraid of the feeling. So we perfect, we're trying to avoid things like criticism or perceived consequences, but in reality, we're trying to avoid feeling.

What we think of as negative or uncomfortable emotions.

@23:05 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep. That's the stuff that really, when you started talking about the, like, this is actually avoiding uncomfortable feelings, that really got me thinking.

Like, that was a real mind-blowing moment, like, when you really start to think about that. Mm-hmm.

@23:31 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

That's really what brought it home for me.

@23:33 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Like, I really started to look at all of these coping strategies that we're going to talk about over the next couple of weeks.

That changed everything for me.

@23:44 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, it is kind of mind-blowing when you first start thinking about it. Like, I just want to, like, you're just trying to keep yourself safe.

So, and that's what our brains do. And I will say this probably a billion times on this podcast.-hmm. ...

... ... ... Yeah. Brains want to keep us safe from a threat, perceived negative emotions, and these are coping strategies that we have developed in childhood to help us with those things.

So children often become perfectionists over time because they want to avoid punishment. Certainly what we did, if, okay, mom would get mad and she'd say, okay, you're getting a spanking when dad gets home.

And then I would try to be perfect all day long. Yeah. And now, okay, so- Maybe she'll change her mind.

@24:40 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Maybe she'll change her mind.

@24:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So if I'm perfect enough, then she'll change her mind and we won't get spanked when dad gets home. And we grew up in the 70s when, like, yes, it's now widely acknowledged that spanking is trauma and not acceptable.

But back then, everyone did. Many people did. And it was even encouraged.

@25:05 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

There were books written that encouraged that behavior. So parents were just doing the best that they knew how. Yeah, there's no blame here.

@25:14 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And we've said that before too. But anyway, so back to where this is coming from. So it's trying to avoid threats and it's our brains trying to keep us safe.

And then it's our brains. Our brains developed these coping strategies when we were children. And it wasn't necessarily to avoid a spanking, but it could be to avoid just your father saying, you know, when you come home with a 90%, where's the other 10%?

Or shaming you for not getting a perfect mark or feeling shame in front of your classmates because you made a mistake.

And they laughed. You know, there's so many. There's billions of different ways. I keep saying that word billion today.

There's so many different ways that, reasons that it could come up as a coping strategy.

@26:13 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

You know, the other thing that I'm thinking about, Jen, is belonging and how this relates to that. And I don't have any research on this because this is just coming to me now.

But I've done, like I've really looked into belonging because of the way that women without kids don't feel like they belong.

So I really did some digging into why belonging is so important for us. And I wonder whether there's a link there too, where if you say something wrong, or you do something that's not perfect, or your house doesn't look like everybody else's, or it's not perfect by your standards or what you believe to be.

Social standards, then maybe one of those fears is, well, people won't like me or they will judge me. And then there's the threat of I'll no longer be invited to the things or I'll no longer be a part of the crowd or if I do get fired and I'm no longer a part of this work environment that I like.

So there's a deeper and deep rooted need to belong as well. And you'd never put perfectionism and belonging together like on the surface.

No. But avoiding those feelings of judgment, like that fear of being judged or fear of what happens if I don't, you know, if my house doesn't appear like everybody else's, maybe I won't fit in anymore.

Absolutely. that's also a threat.

@27:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Absolutely.

@28:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

We're hardwired to belong, to want to belong, because our ancestors would have, like it was certain death if you were not, if you didn't belong to a tribe.

@28:14 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, and you were abandoned. Yep. Yeah, and you can look at that in a different way as well. And that is that we can perfect to try to get love.

So if I'm perfect, then my parents will love me, whichever parent, like you can think back in the family.

Yeah, so if you think back to the parent that you had to be someone, you had to be something or do something to try to receive their love, then one of those things might have been perfecting.

Yeah. If you felt that you had to be someone else to get their love.

@29:07 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Or had to be up to their standards to be loved. Like you had to get the 100% on your tests in order to receive approval.

Yeah. Yeah.

@29:22 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And then just back to, I made a comment before about how like we use, oh, I know what I wanted to say.

We use perfectionism to push down emotions. Like we're trying to avoid emotions by perfecting. Like we try to avoid criticism or shame or another, even sadness or other emotions.

But we also use perfectionism to push down emotions. Right? Because if we're busy perfecting and getting it all right, there isn't time to be still and silent and to actually feel our emotions.

So if you think about it, when you get criticized at work, what do you do? You get busy. Like I used to hate it.

Like if I missed my month, like we used to do sales, I was in sales. So if I missed my numbers, if I missed my target, first thing I would do, and I would get so embarrassed.

If I missed my numbers, even though people did it all the time. The first thing I do, we leave the meeting and I would go work harder to make next month's numbers.

Cause I was trying to avoid that feeling of shame again, because I didn't want to be criticized. Working harder, trying to perfect everything, make sure I don't make a mistake.

So that I didn't have to feel that emotion, but what I was doing was pushing it down. Go So I didn't have to feel it.

And then as we know, our emotions get bottled up and they eventually explode. So the more you perfect and spend time perfecting, the more you turn into the monster.

That was my client.

@31:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah, it causes. Well, that's a good segue, actually. Because one of the things we wanted to talk about was how this shows up in midlife and becomes more of a problem in midlife.

And one of those things is the stress that it causes. Like when I'm running around trying to perfect my house before people come, I exhaust myself.

Like, I'm so tired by the time the guests arrive. And then when they arrive, I've been on my feet all day.

And... Then I'm on my feet again because I'm serving them or I'm standing around, you know, we're standing around the kitchen island having a drink and appetizers or whatever.

And then I'm serving. And by the end of the night, I haven't even really enjoyed myself because I'm so tired and I'm just like, I'm kind of like, okay, it's time for you guys to go home now because I want to go to bed.

@32:24 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I'm stressed.

@32:25 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Like I'm in a constant state of hyper arousal when I'm running around the house perfecting. Because you're afraid of the judgment.

@32:33 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I'm and I'm checking and I'm thinking, what else do I need to do?

@32:39 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

What else is on my list? I'm constantly like thinking about, okay, what else do I have to do? How many things do I have left on the list?

How long is that going to take me? It's like I'm even just thinking about it, I'm getting like I'm starting to hyperventilate because it's like I'm out of breath.

Running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

@32:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And sure, it's not just. Like to your point, it's not just the busyness. It's not just that it creates more to do.

@33:07 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Like triple checking creates more to do, right?

@33:11 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It's not just that. It's the stress in your body because your brain is like, it's like a vicious cycle.

Your brain is becoming hypervigilant to all the things that aren't perfect and aren't correct or aren't up to the high standard.

So your brain is constantly looking for those things, thinking there's a threat out there. And when your brain thinks there's a threat out there and it's looking for threats, it's as if you're out in the wilderness by yourself waiting for a bear to show up.

So it's looking, you're on high alert and that is a stressful state. Your brain is telling your adrenals to release cortisol.

@33:52 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. And then you can't think straight.

@33:56 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Let me finish that thought, Sher. Because then like, okay, that becomes that. Then you can't think straight. And you do end up kind of running around like a chicken with its head cut off because you don't know where to go, what to do next.

You're like spilling stuff, grabbing that from the stove, finding, or like even if it's at work, you're like, okay, what do I do next?

You switch tasks. You try to figure out like, okay, what do I do next? What's the first thing? And you can't actually get focused on anything if you're in such a state of arousal and overwhelm that causes even more stress and more cortisol because now you're like just completely in an anxious state.

It's this vicious cycle. Yeah.

@34:39 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. I was just thinking about when you said, you know, your body's actually looking for a threat and people use that all the time.

Like we equate like your body thinks it's on high alert for the bear or the lion or whatever. And it's said so often that

You can just start to like wave it off and say, oh, it's not like that. And I was just thinking about it as you were talking because I've been in that situation just recently where I, so the house that we moved into, there's, it's all forest along, it's a dirt road.

There's all forest across the street. And there's not a lot of people around right now because it's fall. Most of the cottagers have gone home and I have to take the dog out at night.

Like now it's dark. Like it's, it's dark at eight o'clock or nine when I want to take Parker out for his last, like Pete.

And there are no streetlights. There's no streetlights. If there's no moon, it is dark. And I was doing this the other day, taking him out for, and like trying to keep him in the driveway because I don't really want to go down the road because my body did, like I did start looking around going, because there are, there's.

There are, which are actually in our area, they're very big. They're not like, they're, you know, it's, they're not just coyotes, they're coy wolves.

And so it's scary because I don't know what's in the forest and I hear things and my body actually is in, like, I was thinking about how my body feels in that state.

And it is the same as I feel when I'm running around the house. With not really a threat, but your body thinks it is.

@36:35 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right. My nervous system is wired up.

@36:38 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I'm looking around for all the things I need to do. I'm like in this hyper aroused state. Yeah.

@36:47 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And that is what so many women unknowingly operate in. All day long.

@36:58 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

long. All All day day

@37:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I had no idea for years that I was just operating that way. I just knew that every day I had a headache at the end of the day.

I had pressure in my eyes. I was exhausted. I didn't want to talk anymore. I'd wake up not refreshed.

I was lying awake in the middle of the night. I'd sleep for five hours and then wake up and couldn't go back to sleep.

And I thought, I knew it was because I was stressed. I didn't realize how much I was causing it.

@37:37 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yes.

@37:39 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And I also, like the foggy brain, and I want to get into the menopause symptoms and how this all relates.

Like I couldn't think straight all the time at work, the headaches that I would, I would finish every day with headaches.

And I just thought it was from staring at my computer screen all day. Yeah. And today, I still stare at my computer screen all day because we work mostly online.

And I don't get headaches. Yeah, I get. And if I do get a headache, and it's behind my eyes, I know I was working in stress mode all day.

Yeah.

@38:16 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Someone said that to me recently, that a lot of us are sitting at our desks in a heightened, anxious, stressed out state, and we don't even realize it.

Like you sit down at your desk and your cortisol spikes.

@38:35 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, actually, I used to look at my desk. And because for three years in our past house, I had to work from my bedroom because we didn't have enough space in the house for me to have an office.

And I would clean it off at night and try to cover it up. But in the morning, I would look at my desk and think about how I had to go sit there.

And my heart rate would go up.

@39:05 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, that's a great way to start your day. I know.

@39:08 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Because, well, and so this is like coming back to how we caused this for ourselves. I was kind of imprisoning myself there.

@39:18 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, yeah.

@39:20 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I wasn't allowing myself to take breaks when I needed them. I like had myself on this regimented thing. Like I can take lunch at one o'clock and I'm not going to take a break until then.

And I'm going to, like, I was trying to get more done that way.

@39:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@39:37 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Because somebody told me, like my supervisor when I was doing my PhD used to have a timer set. And he'd say, I can do this for this long.

And then I have to teach a class and then I have to do this. And he was like, his day was planned out that way.

And which is perfectionism in itself, actually. Because we don't, we need to allow our bodies. You talk about this all the time, sure.

We need to allow our Bodies to rest when it needs it. So that could mean going to the bathroom when we need to, or just getting up and walking around for five minutes when we need to, when we know we need a break instead of pushing through.

@40:14 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to the cortisol and, you know, one of the symptoms that showed up for me in, you know, you talked about headaches.

For me, it was the sleepless nights. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and that's how I knew that I was stressed.

And I realized this pretty early on. I also will get stress dreams and they're sort of like, it's not a real dream.

It's kind of a feeling. And I'll wake up in the middle of the night or like be sort of half awake and have this, these feelings.

It feels like a dream, but it's, it's hard to explain. But I know that that, for me, was related to stress.

And, you know, for our listeners who really want to dive into this connection between cortisol and the symptoms that you're feeling, we've talked about this multiple times, you know, go back to, I'll have to link up the episode in the show notes, but the episode where we really link up cortisol and blood sugar balance and insulin and how that all happens in midlife.

Like your state of stress or calm has a massive impact on how your body feels. And if you start to pay attention to when you have sleepless nights and what was your day like before that, and when you have hot flashes and when you have brain fog, like take a look at what happened.

How did you feel the day? Before or during that day, you had those hot flashes because almost guaranteed you were likely in a heightened state of stress.

@42:13 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. And it's not just that you can't turn your brain off. Just on the sleeping stuff, it tends to be like we talk about waking up at 2 a.m.

and lying there for hours. That's because we go to bed at 9 or 10. It's kind of a four or five-hour window.

I was talking to somebody recently who said she goes to bed at 12 and she wakes up at 5.

@42:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes. And then she doesn't go back to bed.

@42:38 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So she only gets five hours of sleep because she can't fall back to sleep. And then, of course, then it's time to wake up.

@42:45 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@42:46 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So it's not necessarily a 2 a.m. wake up. It's waking up early and you can't go back to sleep.

So you get less and less sleep and then you can't function during the day. And that's when you have to read sentences three times before they sink in.

And so, yeah, I think it's about five hours after you go to bed.

@43:04 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

That seems to be like when that happens, you wake up. Yeah.

@43:09 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So those symptoms, oh, and what I wanted to say was that it's caused by the cortisol spikes, not just by your brain not wanting to turn off.

@43:20 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes. Yeah. I don't think that's well known. I think it's just, I think women think that it's just like, I can't get my brain to turn off.

I can't turn off my brain. just keeps going through my to-do list. That's, that's, it's, it's almost like it's backwards.

Like it, you're heightened state. Yes. And the cortisol can sometimes cause that versus that causing the cortisol spike.

@43:51 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I was talking about that with, in one of our live calls in our program the other day or in our membership.

But how? Cortisol can wake you up in the middle of the night and then it causes those dark thoughts.

So even if you don't have necessarily like stressful thoughts or you're not trying to solve a problem, your mind isn't spinning, it might start to spin because there's cortisol in your system and the cortisol tells your body to look for threats.

So it's a vicious cycle. It's a feedback loop.

@44:24 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep, exactly.

@44:26 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So that's why perfectionism, and to sum it up anyway, that's why perfectionism becomes so unbearable in midlife. Why this coping strategy that has, it served you in childhood maybe, and you thought it served you throughout your life, comes to a head in midlife because it interferes with your body so badly that your symptoms are just exacerbated.

Yep, exactly.

@44:55 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Do we want to talk about... The spiritual side of this. Yeah.

@45:06 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I mean, that's what we're all about is, that's what we're always saying is that unless you deal with the spiritual aspects of this, it's hard to get rid of perfectionism or the symptoms, the physical symptoms of menopause completely.

Mm-hmm.

@45:31 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So what would you, I have my ideas, Jen. What would you say is kind of the deeper meaning or the invitation in once you know you're perfectionism, once you know you're a perfectionist?

@45:55 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

What perfectionism does to you? And I used to call these the six masks of doing because they keep you busy.

The reason I called them a mask is because it pushes down emotions and it hides your true self. So if you're busy perfecting because of what everybody else thinks and because you don't want to feel shame or embarrassment and you want everything to be perfect and you're putting up this facade, you're not allowing yourself to be authentic.

@46:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So to take that a step further, Jen, what I, so these are all linked. When you are hiding your true self and you are not being authentic, what you are doing is telling yourself that your true self, the one who leaves toothpaste.

on a regular basis, except when there's guests over, is not worthy. And to me, it's that authenticity. It's the authenticity happens when you believe yourself, that authentic self to be worthy of being seen, heard, or known.

In the world, if you are, you will show your true self, if you believe that that true self is worthy.

I just needed to say that again. And that to me, is the spiritual aspect. You're like, if you're telling your soul, your true inner soul, that it's not allowed to be seen, because people might not like it.

Then... You're not tied into that, to your soul, to who you really are. And that to me is spirituality.

@48:14 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Absolutely. It also, it cuts you off eventually from your soul, inner wisdom, true self, whatever you want to call it, because you're so busy.

And this is why perfectionism is so tied in as well with people-pleasing. You're so worried about what everyone else thinks, and you're so worried about getting everything perfect, that you lose track of what you truly desire.

So you no longer align with what your soul really wants, and you're trying to align yourself with what everybody else really wants, or what you think the world wants as perfection.

Yep.

@48:58 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And, um...

@49:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Or what the world expects of you.

@49:02 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes.

@49:03 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

That's a better way to say it. And also then you can't access your true self. Like you can't access your inner wisdom.

@49:12 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So then you don't feel connect to your intuition. Yeah.

@49:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And so then, and that, I think that might be kind of abstract sometimes for people. So the way I like to think of it is that when I've lost, when I did lose all of that a few years ago, I felt depressed.

I didn't want to work anymore because I wasn't inspired. Like I just wasn't even motivated to do work. And when I started reconnecting with what I really wanted and like the goals I had in my purpose, it doesn't matter what your job is.

If you, if you have purpose in that job or whatever you're trying to. Then you feel inspired again. But if you're trying to just perfect, you don't even feel that motivation anymore.

And that's why so many of our clients, they come to us initially and I ask them, why are you here?

And they're like, I just want to feel alive again.

@50:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. I'm on autopilot.

@50:20 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@50:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep.

@50:22 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So that's what it feels like when you're stuck in perfectionist mode is you're on autopilot because you're just doing all of it because you don't even realize that you're doing it anymore.

Yeah.

@50:33 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

You're not really living anymore. Mm-hmm. So you lose that connection with both inspiration, which I see as that, like, the spark, the motivation, the purpose.

then you also lose connect, right, in inspiration, in spirit. And then you also lose touch with your own intuition, which is that inner wisdom, your gut feeling.

Whatever you want to call that, but it's that part of you that tells you what's right for you. Yeah.

@51:12 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@51:13 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So let's wrap this up, Gem, because our listeners are probably wondering, okay, so if I know I'm a perfectionist or I'm displaying some of these qualities of a perfectionist, these signs, what do I do?

And you know, as well as I do, that we always start with the awareness, which is what we're doing right here on the podcast.

It's listen to the podcast, notice the signs, and then see how it applies in your life. So it's always witnessing, noticing, where is this showing up for you?

And paying attention. To that. Yep.

@52:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

We always tell our clients to journal on it. Like I have them track. Every time you catch yourself perfecting something or triple checking or whatever, write it down.

Because once you do that, you start to see the patterns. Like, oh, I am every time I'm afraid of missing my numbers at work or afraid of something at work.

That's when I start to perfect. Yep.

@52:27 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And that's when we can really start to get into, okay, when you're doing that, what are the emotions that you might be avoiding?

What are these patterns? Where do they come from? How can we break them? How can we dismantle the beliefs that are driving these behaviors?

And those are all the other steps that require far more time than a podcast to get into. So that's what you will find inside of our membership and our retreats.

We do that work there. And so... And we'll link up in the show notes how to... That's not our CTA today.

@53:09 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

No, we will link up in the show. So, okay. So we can put that in. We can link up in the show notes if you're interested in joining our monthly membership so that you can start to dig deeper into your midlife coping strategies.

If you are just starting this work though, and you want to know what your midlife coping strategy is, there are four more of these.

So we've spoken... There's six in total. We spoke about pleasing last week, and today we talked about perfecting. And there's four more.

So if you want to know your coping strategy, take our quiz. It takes two minutes to do it. And that link will be in the show notes too.

@53:50 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. We can actually rhyme that off too. 

@53:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Midlifewomenrising.com.

@54:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Slash quiz. I'm to say that again.

@54:07 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It's midlifewomenrising.com slash quiz. Okay, perfect.

@54:14 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

All right. So come back next week and we're going to be talking about overthinking, which is another one of these coping strategies.

So come back and join us for that conversation. See you then. 

.

@55:09 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

This is episode. So this is 14.