31: How to Stop Ruminating in the Middle of the Night

Get the Midlife Sleep Sanctuary

Waking at 2 AM with your mind racing? In this episode, we unpack why we ruminate at night and the surprising steps that actually stop it.

So many woman in midlife says the same thing: they wake at 2 or 3 a.m. and can’t fall back asleep because their mind won’t stop replaying the day - or rehearsing the future. 

The surprising thing about ruminating is that it's often about avoiding feelings - shame, fear, or uncertainty - not about the facts of a situation. 

In this episode you are going to discover: 

• the four common ways our brains rumble at night: replaying the past, trying to problem-solve, planning for the future, and avoiding painful feelings
• why pushing those thoughts away actually makes them louder. 
• the counterintuitive approach that works

You’ll learn practical steps you can use tonight, plus why cortisol, survival brain patterns, and perfectionism fuel midnight rumination. 

If you’re ready to sleep through the night, our process and solution - the Sleep Sanctuary is opening soon!  It's designed to stop middle-of-the-night rumination and bring restful sleep back in as little as two weeks.  Send us a message on Instagram with the word SLEEP to be the first to know when we launch!

References from this episode: 

Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown 

Join us in Costa Rica, October 2026 for our Retreat: Soul-Aligned - Design Your Extraordinary Next Chapter! Click here for details.

Find us on instagram:

 @midlifewomenrising

@jenreimercoaching

Transcript

@0:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Welcome back to the Midlife Rising podcast. We're excited to talk to you today about a really hot topic in midlife, which is sleep.

Almost every person I talk to is talking about sleep. What about you, Jen? Yep.

@0:42 - Jennifer Reimer

Everybody talks about how they're waking up at two o'clock in the morning and they can't fall back to sleep.

Like every woman that I know. That's my age.

@0:51 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah. So this is, and it's not just that. Sometimes it's also the not being able to fall asleep or waking up at the crack of dawn.

When, when. You know you haven't had enough sleep. So there's other parts of it. But today we're going to get into something really specific, and that is the ruminating that happens when you wake up at 2 or 3 in the morning, right?

It's the worst.

@1:17 - Jennifer Reimer

So that was my life for over a year, every single night. Two hours of sleep, I'd miss because I'd lie awake.

And I'm not the kind of person to get out of bed. Like my husband, if he wakes up at 2, he just gets up and either watches TV or works or something.

I would never get out of bed because I'm so tired. Like I'm wide awake, but I'm so tired. And then the brain would start going.

Tired but wired, right?

@1:46 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@1:48 - Jennifer Reimer

Yeah, I wouldn't have called it that. I wouldn't have said it that way back then. But yeah, it's that feeling of sort of like tossing and turning.

My feet would be, I couldn't get out. Exact same time every single night. Like for me for a while there.

So I'd go to bed at nine o'clock as I do. And then I'd wake up at 1130 for about half an hour.

And then I'd wake up again at like 207 or 211. And it was every single night, almost to the minute.

@4:19 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Until I stopped looking at the clock.

@4:22 - Jennifer Reimer

Eventually I'd stop looking at the clock and I'd be like, maybe if I don't move and I just lie perfectly still, my body will stay relaxed and I'll go back to sleep.

@4:33 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And then that doesn't work. That didn't work either.

@4:36 - Jennifer Reimer

No. And eventually I'd start to fidget and my feet would get itchy.

@4:41 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. It's a hormonal thing.

@4:44 - Jennifer Reimer

happened to you when I was pregnant. And now it happens. Yeah. Sometimes in the middle of the night, not so much anymore, but every once in a while.

And yeah. So then you lie there fidgeting and tossing and turning. For about two, usually even more than two, two and a half hours.

And thinking.

@5:08 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

That's the other part of it, right? And Your brain is active and doing one of those four things. Worrying about something that happened in the past.

Or for me, it's I'm thinking about a conversation that I had, someone who mistreated me, and I'm like, oh, this is what I would have said.

Or it's what you and I talked about before, which is I've done something or said something that has pissed someone off.

And so I feel bad. Like I feel like a bad person. I feel like I've done something wrong. I feel really ashamed.

And so my mind is working at softening that blow. Like my mind is like almost, it's almost like it will change the story.

A little bit. It will try to soften language that I use. But what if I had said it this way?

It's almost like it's changing the story, trying to make myself feel better. Yeah.

@6:15 - Jennifer Reimer

It's your brain trying to, well, we'll talk about what exactly it is in a minute, but I've also noticed my brain doing that.

It tries to change this. Like if I don't like what I said or did, then I'm trying to change the story.

Yeah. And not consciously, it's more like a, oh, it's like this subconscious need to find a different way to present it.

It's like reframing it almost. Yeah.

@6:47 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@6:49 - Jennifer Reimer

So, so yeah, it's that, so that's what, I mean, just to explain what ruminating is in the, like, it's that feeling of spiraling and it doesn't always.

Necessarily start that way. That's the other thing I've noticed. Like I used to say, well, I'm not even stressed.

Like I didn't, I'd wake up in the middle of the night, not because I woke up thinking about a problem or like I was dreaming about it or something.

Like I just, I woke up with my mind calm and then my brain would start going.

@7:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, right? Like you wonder which actually came first. Did I wake up because, like, why did I wake up?

And now am I just staying awake because now I've thought about this thing because I was awake? Or was this something that I hadn't processed during the day?

And so now my mind is waking me up because it's trying to process it. Yeah.

@7:48 - Jennifer Reimer

And it can be all of those things. And it's a system. Like cortisol, cortisol is, the thoughts can raise the cortisol in your body and the cortisol can.

Cause the thoughts to race, cause cortisol will make you look around for threats. And those are what the threats are in today's world.

When we don't have predators, at least not in most parts of the world, where we live, then the threats are different.

It could be the problems we have to solve. And more commonly, it's the feelings we want to avoid.

@8:30 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Well, that's, so this is what I really want to get into, Jen. Cause I think this is the crux of it all.

It's, it's the feelings that you want to avoid. That's why our brain wants to reframe what we said, or try to soften what we said, or try to change the intention, or.

Exactly.

@8:52 - Jennifer Reimer

Every single time. To avoid.

@8:54 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm. Like it, it never fails for all four of those.

@8:58 - Jennifer Reimer

So let's walk through all four of them. Yes, absolutely.

@11:02 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. And that is, like, I don't even know if people would use the word guilt. They would just say, I feel so bad that I've done this.

And it feels, I chatted with a few people after I did this particular thing that I'm not ready to talk about yet on the podcast.

Yeah. But I did talk to a few people about it, and we all agreed that it's this icky feeling in the gut.

It's like a, like, it's right in, I mean, the place, now that I know where we feel shame, we feel it in the womb space.

And that's where I feel the ickiness. And it's a feeling that you can't quite describe. Yeah, yeah. And it's just icky.

Like, it's just like, oh, I just, like, I wish I hadn't done that. You know? I know. We all know that feeling.

@11:56 - Jennifer Reimer

Mm-hmm.

@11:59 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So, that's... That's also helpful, actually, is figuring out where you feel it in the body. It can be helpful to figure out what the emotion is.

And naming it and describing it can actually help to alleviate it a little bit.

@12:15 - Jennifer Reimer

Right? Because if you're also, so the other thing that we tend to look back on and ruminate about is when someone else hurt us or did something that made us feel whatever, made us feel like a smaller person, like less than, disempowered, you might feel that higher up in your gut because that's about losing your power.

And then you ruminate about what you wish you said because you didn't step into your power and say what you really wanted to say.

were trying to, you know, smooth things over. You didn't want to conflict. So you didn't say what you really wanted to say.

And, but that actually made you feel powerless. Yes. And we sometimes also, you can either.

@14:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

The, like, stick it to you kind of thing after, like, way after the fact. It's after I've been thinking about it.

And so then it's almost like at night my brain is trying to go back to the moment and replay it, except that I actually step into my power and say what I really wanted to say.

Yeah.

@14:19 - Jennifer Reimer

Your brain is trying to go back in time. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

@14:23 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Okay.

@14:24 - Jennifer Reimer

So frustrating that we can't go back in time sometimes. So. Yeah. Next one, and this is, I mean, this is a huge one, is problem solving.

So we're trying to fix something. It could be at work. It could be at home. Anything. I used to always try to solve problems at work.

Even now, I try to, like, if I do wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes I'm trying to think about marketing content.

That's one of the biggest, like, one of the hardest things that I find in our business. And so I lie there running scenarios in my head trying to solve this problem.

problem.

@15:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, of what are we going to say?

@15:02 - Jennifer Reimer

How are we going to say it? So that's a big one. And the emotion, again, we can look at it as we're trying to solve this external problem.

And in reality, we're still trying to avoid something we fear. A consequence, like I got to solve this problem or something.

And that's the part that's not conscious. Like we don't go around thinking, if I don't solve this problem at work, I'm going to lose my job.

@15:38 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And then I'm not going to be able to put food on the table.

@15:41 - Jennifer Reimer

Like we don't think that consciously. We think I need to solve this problem because I got to solve it.

This is my job. It's my responsibility. Yeah.

@15:52 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And yet it's the, when we're ruminating, it's the limbic brain that's that. right. right. right. All That primitive brain that's being activated that goes into survival mode.

So it's looking for, okay, how do I survive? And if this, and it's looking for threats to survival too, right, Jen?

Like that threat, like if I don't solve this problem, then I may not look very competent at work and then I might lose my job and then I, how will I make money?

So there's always a, and like you said, we don't go through that process. It happens in a split second, but it's there and we're not conscious of it.

But our limbic brain, our primitive brain is going to, through that process and looking for the threats to our survival, which in our day and age, it's money, it's security and safety.

It's like even food. If I don't have money, then I can't buy food for my family. So there's. And so there was this fear of that came out of that, that was just, we were talking about why she's not taking a supplement.

It's something so simple. Yeah.

@18:11 - Jennifer Reimer

So it's not really a ruminating story, but it is, it is a very good example of following the path of the conscious thought to the subconscious or unconscious belief.

Fear.

@18:25 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So when it comes to problem solving, we also could do that because we're trying to avoid an emotion.

@18:35 - Jennifer Reimer

So like we've got a client who's always worried about her reputation. Like this is my, my reputation is going to be on the line.

So she does all these things and goes way beyond what what's called for because this is her brand and her reputation.

And that is not only if it, like we've worked it backwards with her too. And it does come down to a fear of not like of losing clients and not having any money.

And she's also said, I would die of embarrassment. She's afraid of the shame. Of like, if I make a mistake, then that's going to be embarrassing.

Yeah.

@19:16 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And let's just, like, there's a difference between embarrassment and shame. I think a lot of the time we talk about shame as embarrassment.

It's either I feel bad or I'm embarrassed in front of people. And I think that embarrassment, I think this goes back to something Brene Brown said in Atlas of the Heart, was embarrassment is a feeling that you get around something that you did.

And the shame is, like you said, around being a bad person. Something are.

@19:56 - Jennifer Reimer

Something you think you are. Or an identity. What's going to happen? Because we don't like that uncertainty.

@21:04 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes. to set a boundary.

@21:08 - Jennifer Reimer

So it's the same thing. It's a fear of consequences, whether they're real or perceived.

@21:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And it's a fear of potential emotions that you don't want to feel.

@21:20 - Jennifer Reimer

So if I like planning to set a boundary, I'm going to say no to this person when they come to me with another 5 p.m.

phone call for a deadline that I have to hit tomorrow. I'm going to set that boundary because I don't want to feel, I don't want to work late, and I don't want to resent that person.

I don't want to turn into a monster with my family. So there's like different, there's always, it's complicated, but it's something that you are fearing that could happen in the future.

So can I give another example, Jen?

@21:57 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Because something that I do often is... when I'm heading into a week where I know I'm short on time, that's when I start ruminating and planning.

So I could spend the two hours when I'm awake. In the middle of the night? Stressing in the middle of the night.

@22:19 - Jennifer Reimer

Yeah.

@22:19 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes. I'm awake for many more hours during the day. But when I'm awake for those two hours during the night, I could spend that entire time thinking about meal planning.

Thinking about what am I going to make for dinner and how can I make this fast and easy and still healthy?

So I'll be running through, like scanning my list of different meals and recipes and things. What am I going to do and when am I going to cook those?

And it seems so silly when I'm talking about it, but it's one of the things.

@22:51 - Jennifer Reimer

It does actually, but it's not. It's very common.

@22:55 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, and it could be, like sometimes it's meal planning, but other times it's planning it. Okay, I've got to get all these things done at work.

And so I'm going to do this then, and I'm going to do this at that time, and I'm going to do this, and that's how I'm going to fit this all in.

And that's another fear of the future. It's the uncertainty that I'm going to be able to get everything in that I, quote unquote, need to get done, that I want to get done.

And so there's fear that I'm not going to fit it all in, or fear that something's going to happen if I drop one of those balls, if something doesn't get done.

So it's still a fear, isn't it?

@23:37 - Jennifer Reimer

Yeah, and that comes down to the subconscious. Like, the only thing we're thinking is, I just have to get all this done.

We're not thinking about what happens when you don't get all of it done, or why all of these things must get done.

@23:54 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Like, don't, we're not, in the middle of the night, you're not thinking about what could, you could drop. Yep.

No, exactly.

@24:04 - Jennifer Reimer

So, and that's very close to just worrying about the future, which is the fourth one. It's just like, what if this happens?

If your parents, like at our age, we've got parents who are in their 80s. What if they get ill?

Worrying about like, what could this be? Even in our own bodies, like, what is this thing? I've got this thing, like my neck is popping right now.

It's like suddenly just making a lot of noise and I'm worried about it. Yeah. And it's, it's not, I'm not thinking about what it could potentially be.

I'm just like, what is that? I don't like that. Why is that happening to me? So, so that, and so that's not, that's just kind of more of a general sense of worry over stuff, which is very natural.

Of course.

@24:56 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And yet any kind of worry still. comes down to some fear of uncertainty, some fear of the future.

@25:04 - Jennifer Reimer

Yeah, for sure. I haven't actually dug into like, why am I so afraid of this neck popping? Like, I think it's more like, it's like, what is happening in my body?

Is there something wrong with me? So once I dig into that, it is, it's like a fear of, it's a fear for my health.

It's a fear that I'm going to lose, I don't know, movement in my neck or it's going to get painful or.

Some aspect of your health. so, um, so yeah, most, you're right. Like the three future ones tend to come down to uncertainty and it's always, it's an underlying fear of either consequences or an emotion for all four of them.

So let's share, let's, um, I think we've got a pretty good idea of the main ways that rumination comes up.

And the reason that we've been talking so much about what's underneath it You Is because of the way that we solve this problem.

@26:06 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Right. And the way that, yeah, I was going to say, Jen, that the way that we try to solve it is just by pushing these thoughts away, right?

Like we just try to tell ourselves, stop thinking about this. Stop thinking about this. Think about something more positive.

Count sheep.

@26:23 - Jennifer Reimer

Start. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that, and that's what, that's what we tend to hear out there. Like, you know, the whole gratitude and positivity movement and, you know, and manifesting, that's what it's always like.

We have to be in a state of abundance to manifest abundance, or you need to be in a state of gratitude all the time.

And that's actually not possible. Because unless, if, if you're pushing thought, like negative thoughts or feelings away, you're not going to feel true positivity or gratitude.

Right. So in, in this case, if you're ruminating and you're trying And push the thoughts away, then all you're doing is bottling them up.

And you can't, it's very difficult. It's very difficult to think about positive things when you have these very loud thoughts in your mind.

@27:18 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And emotions that you're trying to cover up. Yeah.

@27:23 - Jennifer Reimer

So the counterintuitive thing to do instead is to actually watch the thoughts and let yourself think the thoughts.

@27:34 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm.

@27:35 - Jennifer Reimer

So what I do is I watch the thoughts and I watch what I'm actually thinking, which is how you and I both, Sheri, have been able to get to these things that are underneath it.

Yeah. Because when you get to the emotion that you're trying not to feel or the fear you're trying to avoid, then the thoughts.

That's just dissipate. That takes away their power completely. Yeah.

@28:05 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Labeling, being able to name the emotion that you're feeling, that has a lot of power just by itself.

Just being able to label what you're feeling as, I'm feeling ashamed of this thing that I said or did, and I'm trying to change that.

Or I'm feeling worried. I'm uncertain about this future, about solving this problem, and that's making me feel afraid of something.

You don't even have to name what it is that you're exactly afraid of. You can just name the feeling.

Yeah.

@28:50 - Jennifer Reimer

It's great first step. Yeah.

@28:54 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So 

So, Jen, let's talk about what we have as a solution for this. So, listener, if you have been feeling any of what we've been talking about, this waking up in the middle of the

Ruminating on something, whether it's past or future, then we have a solution for you to sleep through the night.

It's called the Sleep Sanctuary. It's called the Sleep Sanctuary. And this is going to be ready for you by the time this podcast is released to get you sleeping in 14 days through the night.

So if you want that, then hit the link in the show notes. It's midlifewomenrising.com slash sleep. And we'll get you sleeping.

We'll get you through this rumination. So go do that. The link will be in the show notes. And come back next week for another episode.

And if you found this valuable, share it with somebody.

@31:53 - Jennifer Reimer

Okay. Thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next week. Thank